Franchise Original Sin cleanup and maintenance

From The Simpsons S4 E12 "Marge vs. the Monorail":

• Franchise Original Sin: This episode, considered one of the greatest of all time, is now the most fan-rewritten as a "modern" Simpsons episode to illustrate how badly the show has fallen into Seasonal Rot as it has a lot of elements present in later episodes that fans have criticized: celebrity cameos (Phil Hartman as Lyle Lanley and Leonard Nimoy as himself, the plot involving Homer having a new job that only lasts one episode, the Big Lipped Alligator Moments mentioned above, and a musical number that could be replaced with more jokes and general scenes. What potentially saves this from being a Zombie Simpsons episode is that Phil had been a recurring voice actor on the show since season 2, the story ties into the overall theme of deconstructing popular media and showing how things can get pearshaped as to The Simpsons core elements, being based off of an actual movie and stage play, the story doesn't revolve around entirely guest characters like Leonard Nemoy, much like how Lurleen Lumpkin was not her guest voice actor entirely, and its more surreal and larger than life aspects has some emphasis in reality. To some these days, this would be more at home as a Family Guy episode, not a Simpsons one.

Too complainy in a way not remediable simply by cutting the "it was more acceptable here" requirement. It should focus more on the fact that the episode has a lot of elements that were chastised in later seasons. Also it's weirdly phrased so it's hard to tell if the episode is still well-liked.

I move that the following be removed:

The Loud House: A growing criticism of the series is episodes featuring more fantastical situations compared to Seasons 1-3. There were already instances of more unrealistic things happening in prior seasons, like the revelation that Lincoln was delivered by the First Lady in "Not a Loud", but these were forgiven for the most part because they were subtle, sporadic instances that rarely broke the Willing Suspension of Disbelief, and previous seasons at least had boundaries for the reality of The Loud House world. Season 4, however, had many take notice of these instances happening practically several episodes and becoming far more zany and explicitly outside the realm of realism (paranormal elements and Time Travel being the most egregious), with it becoming seemingly more ingrained into the show's formula in Season 5. This made people decry it as moving too far away from the show's original premise as a relatable, grounded series about a boy and his 10 sisters.

I personally don't think that this has seriously affected the show as a whole, plus it seems kinda complainy.

I mean, is it a common complaint?

As far as I can tell, those complaining about it seem to be a rather vocal minority, and quite a few fans think that most of the recent episodes have been good.

Edited by Kissinger113 on Sep 18th 2021 at 5:59:54 AM

Mind if anybody takes a good look at the American Idol subpage?

Should Franchise Original Sin go under the work it originated from or the work where it became as criticized as it was?

Per this thread - I don't know if this explanation makes sense, but regarding Franchise Original Sin for Pokémon Journeys: The Series: the reason for the original addition for FOS was because Goh attracted a ton of complaining, even more so than previous companions, even though the original FOS entry pointed out an older character (plus literally every single companion) got flak for the same charge. I don't think the apparent lack of negativity (per Synchronicity's post) is a good qualifier to keep it off the page, but I don't know what I can cite to prove otherwise - it's gotten to the point two major Pokemon sites had to have rules against endless Goh bashing for the same reason.

Does the "sin" really have to be "inherently negative" to count, or can it just be a controversial writing decision?

I think what makes it not count here is that the characters still received flak in older seasons, because Pokemon has always been of the They Changed It, Now It Sucks! mindset. I suspect the hate against Goh is also influenced by the time of the series, because anything from Gen 8 has some extra bias against it from the fanbase since the "Dexit" stuff.

Edited by mightymewtron on Dec 1st 2021 at 7:31:24 AM

Well, that and the fact that some people hate Pokemon Go and Let's Go for being too casual and different from the main games, so Goh's very existence annoys those people as well. (Speaking personally, both of those games take away mechanics I love in the normal games so I don't care for them, and would probably find Goh annoying as a result if I watched the anime anymore.)

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 1st 2021 at 7:35:35 AM

Yep, it's a lot of that, but you also had people absolutely hating Goh for not accepting his initial Pokemon partner at first. That said, a LOT of the continued hate is due to it still feeding into the feeling of stealing the show from Ash. I'll explain below.

Also that. A LOT of the vocal Goh haters really despise the Go spinoffs.

That all said, though, while a lot of Goh haters jumped in because of a hate for the Go stuff or because of Dexit hate, there's still a lot of the same people making that crit also accusing him of still stealing the spotline from the "main" games and Ash.

Edited by FishiousRend on Dec 1st 2021 at 6:49:29 AM

I personally think the Pokémon Franchise Original Sin page is too complain-y at multiple points as for instance the game section ends by claiming the VG Cs have been stormed by nigh-identical teams. From my point of view, while there have been shared Pok´mon and moves ever since Generation VII, they also tend to use overlooked Pokémon and moves like Golduck and Venusaur.

Also just because players use similar Pokemon doesn't mean their exact replicas.

Modifying their I Vs, different items, abilities and moves can cause huge differences.

The VGC thing is talking about the CHALK strategy, which uses the literal same team each time (Cresselia, Heatran, Amoongus, Lando-T, and Mega Kangaskhan). Sure, some different strats, but it's talking about how there's little diversity in competitive overall.

Not to mention that the entire point of FOS is that it has been done before, only that people didn't complain back then. So I don't get your argument.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 2nd 2021 at 3:27:59 PM

Wouldn't this be Complacent Gaming Syndrome, as it deals with how players play the game rather than the game itself?

Yeah, there's already an entry for it there. I think the "sin" in this case is more along the lines of poor game balance that sort of forces players to use the same Pokemon as each other in order to be successful at competitive, when there's hundreds of Pokemon to choose from each time, but all but five of them just don't cut it.

Well, it's been a while and why hasn't this entry been rewritten?

• Franchise Original Sin: This episode, considered one of the greatest of all time, is now the most fan-rewritten as a "modern" Simpsons episode to illustrate how badly the show has fallen into Seasonal Rot as it has a lot of elements present in later episodes that fans have criticized: celebrity cameos (Phil Hartman as Lyle Lanley and Leonard Nimoy as himself, the plot involving Homer having a new job that only lasts one episode, the Big Lipped Alligator Moments mentioned above, and a musical number that could be replaced with more jokes and general scenes. What potentially saves this from being a Zombie Simpsons episode is that Phil had been a recurring voice actor on the show since season 2, the story ties into the overall theme of deconstructing popular media and showing how things can get pearshaped as to The Simpsons core elements, being based off of an actual movie and stage play, the story doesn't revolve around entirely guest characters like Leonard Nemoy, much like how Lurleen Lumpkin was not her guest voice actor entirely, and its more surreal and larger than life aspects has some emphasis in reality. To some these days, this would be more at home as a Family Guy episode, not a Simpsons one.

Where do I even start to rewrite?

It'd help to link the page: The Simpsons S4 E12 "Marge vs. the Monorail"

Found this on Kingdom Hearts IV's YMMV page:

• Franchise Original Sin: The shrinking of Sora's Anime Hair and large shoes, one of the most contested elements of the reveal trailer, had long since been coming. Every new mainline design of Sora's has had smaller hair and shoes than the last, with Kingdom Hearts III in particular showing them getting smaller in-game. However, all previous designs still followed the basic "big shoes and spiky hair" silhouette that Sora is famous for, whereas his IV look has neither of these things.

Barring the fact that there's only one trailer so far, does the trope apply for works pre-release?

Edited by Super_Weegee on Apr 10th 2022 at 10:24:37 AM

I'll try. I'm not really sure what to do about the "Homer having a job that only last one episode" bit:

• Franchise Original Sin: This episode, which is considered one of the best Simpsons episodes of all time, nonetheless introduced some traits that became problematic in later seasons, particularly the reliance on celebrity cameos, using musical numbers and Family Guy-style blackouts to fill time, as well as characters doing things their character wouldn't normally do for the sake of the episode's plot (such as Homer taking on jobs outside the Power Plant).

Already added to the discussion page cuz I forgot this thread existed. Can I re-add the Franchise Original Sin entry to Animaniacs (2020) since it no longer requires an explanation of why the entry was done "better" in the previous installment? That's why the original entry was cut back in 2020.

Found these at YMMV.Trails Series and I'm very unsure of them:

• Franchise Original Sin: Some problems players have with later entries, especially the Cold Steel games, were present since the beginning, but weren't quite as bad about it:
  • The Clueless Chick-Magnet protagonist. In the Sky games, while Joshua was prone to comically misunderstanding what his female companions are talking about and gets a fair amount of admirers, it was never the focus of his interactions. He genuinely does not have feelings for anyone but Estelle, their romance is heavily integrated into the plot, and he can't understand why he's so often flirted with. Most importantly, Estelle was the main viewpoint character, and Joshua's girl troubles were secondary to their development. In later arcs, both Lloyd and Rean are heavily flirted with by any and all available romantic partners, who will invariably confess a hidden infatuation with the protagonist if you dig deep enough. Lloyd had it bad enough with three, maybe four, potential suitors, but then Rean had to top him with at least eleven. What's more, the many potential options have divided fans on which, if any, should be picked, and who got the most development among them.
  • The Cold Steel games got a lot of flak for how Easily Forgiven Crow was by the rest of Class VII. Despite being the leader of the terrorist group responsible for starting a civil war, Rean and the rest of Class VII were willing to forgive him and welcome him back to Class VII. However, this willingness to forgive villains applied to both the Sky trilogy and Crossbell duology. Estelle was willing to forgive Renne and Joshua for their actions as Enforcers of Ouroboros, while Lloyd was willing to forgive Ian for the murder of his brother Guy and conspiring with the Crois family. However, the different circumstances of these villains has made them less controversial than Crow. Estelle was willing to forgive Joshua and Renne because they were both mentally broken Child Soldiers, not to mention that Joshua was also brainwashed by Weissman into doing his bidding so he wasn't in full control of his actions. And while Lloyd did forgive Ian for killing his brother, the perpetrator was still arrested and sent to prison, so Lloyd's forgiveness wasn't an easy get-out-of-jail-free card. Thus, Rean and the rest of Class VII going on and on about bringing Crow back so he can graduate seems naive at best, considering they barely bring up any atonement or punishment for his actions even though Crow does eventually end up paying for his sins and doesn't get off scot-free either.
  • The ending to Trails in the Sky FC began a trend in the series by ending on a Wham Episode cliffhanger: Professor Alba reveals himself to be Weissmann, a high ranking member of Ouroboros and the real instigator of the game's events, and also reveals that Joshua was an Ouroboros Enforcer. Joshua knocks out Estelle and leaves her to try and take down Weissmann himself. When the series would attempt a similar cliffhanger in the ending of Cold Steel 1, Crow assassinates the chancellor, Noblist forces seize Heimdallr and attempt to take Thors, and Rean is forced to flee and leave his classmates, the move was more contentious. Much of this is due to the nature of everything leading up to the endings in both games. While Sky FC's ending reveal is sudden, it comes after the main driving forces for the plot (Estelle and Joshua becoming bracers and the Liberl Army Coup) have been resolved enough to give the player some feeling of accomplishment, and making the ending cliffhanger more of a Sequel Hook setting up the story of the next installment. Cold Steel 1's ending, on the other hand, comes at a point when so many plot threads are either still left dangling or have been barely resolved and the player having accomplished so little that it feels as though the plot is just starting, and thus making the cliffhanger feel not so much a tease of the next installment as much as demanding the player pay for a full other game to get the rest of the story.

On FranchiseOriginalSin.Marvel Cinematic Universe, there are two entries, one concerning the changes made to Taskmaster in Black Widow (2021) and one concerning the Bait-and-Switch regarding Evan Peters' character in Wandavision, that use the example of the Mandarin twist in Iron Man 3 as an example of something similar done in the past that people didn't mind. As I recall, the Mandarin twist was one of the most divisive things about that movie, so do the examples apply?

Didn't we take out the people didn't mind it back than rule.

We did.