I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post
, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."
I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:
Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.
Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.
I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:
- The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
- The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
- What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
- The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
- Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
- Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
- How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
- The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
- Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
- The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
- Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
- The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
- The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
- Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
- The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
- After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
- "My leg!" Seems fine to me.
- "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
- Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
- Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
- Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
- The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
- Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
- Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
- Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
- Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
- Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.
Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM
A Kitsune Balancing Act
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, I think that would be a good idea, to have a new trope for moments meant to be dramatic or sad, but only end up falling flat rather than being funny, because as far as I know that's not a trope here, and I did think that was just supposed to be Narm before having it clarified. Having that be a separate YMMV might help make cleaning Narm easier.
@nrjxll What you described is Narm Charm.
Sturgeon's Law is too YMMV for page examples, so WHY is it not a YMMV trope!?
I'm Sad Frogerson.
No. No, that sounds like a terrible idea. What constitutes as "falling flat"? Bad acting? The writers copping out on a plot point? Laziness? Continuity errors? A trope dedicated to dramatic moments just "falling flat" is just a magnet for people to complain about scenes they don't like.
Narm has enough misuse along those lines as it is, and a lot of it boils down to petty complaints. Narm has a salvageable premise, something meant to be serious or dramatic comes across as humorous for a variety of reasons. We already have Dethroning Moment of Suck for people to talk about moments in a work that fell flat for them, and countless other YMMV tropes that are far more specific in their scope. A trope about "moments falling flat" is way too general to not be abused in some way.
There is no Planet B
Thanks for the second opinion on the Game of Thrones issue.
I'll delete two of those three. One of them had someone actually add to it some more context, and now it feels like it could be a valid example of this audience reaction — I'm not 100% convinced, but I don't want to come off as a loony obsessed fan. ;-)
I agree that we don't need another audience reaction that invites complaining. 'Moment falling flat' sounds too general that anything that doesn't sit with you well can be an example, and creators are people, too, so there will always be mistakes and poor execution in works of fiction.
Narm Charm is also kinda a mess, honestly. It seems to be used variously either as 'camp' or Narm Done Well.
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
x6: Actually, we only want to record examples of Audience Reactions (which Narm is, it's Not a Trope) when they actually cause said reaction in a notable amount of people. If nearly the whole fandom loved a certain scene, it would be acceptable to get rid of a Narm entry about it.
Edited by Zuxtron on Apr 29th 2019 at 8:40:36 AM
A Kitsune Balancing Act
Well okay, I see your point about it being a bad idea and I don't really want anymore complaining either, then I think someone would have to fix the description of Narm, and then specifically point out it's only for things that ended up unintentionally humorous and nothing else
Sturgeon's Law is too YMMV for page examples, so WHY is it not a YMMV trope!?
Alright, I already removed an example about this scene because it's not funny. At worst it just falls flat. But now it's back. Spoilers for Avengers: Endgame: In the final battle, a team of heroines assemble to escort Captain Marvel and the Infinity Gauntlet to the quantum tunnel. The problem is, aside from the fact that Carol is the last person on the heroes' side that needs an escort, the group not only forms on the spot, it consists of every heroine in the MCU. The sheer improbability that a group of ten supposedly random heroes would all be women makes it rather obvious that the point of the scene was to showcase the franchise's strong female characters. The lack of subtlety as well as the fact that only two of them have any meaningful appearance and contribution to the plot (Past Gamora and Present Nebula) make the moment feel comedic instead, like a cheesy parody of the intended message. That said, it does also have a Narm Charm feel to it, as mentioned below.
It was readded with the reason "This sequence is many things, subtle is not one of them. Also, while it does rate as narm, if it genuinely didn't qualify then the narm charm entry would need to be deleted too. It has to be the former to count as the latter, that's how the trope works."
The first sentence is referring to removing some gushing about the scene.
I don't think it counts as Narm, because it isn't FUNNY. Saying it's "laughable" doesn't count. Thoughts?
...Hello, comics movie misogynists, I've sure missed you. In addition to that and what you've already noted, I'd probably add as yet another reason to cut that I feel like the scene already has an intentional bit of humor by including Mantis, who has no appreciable combat capability, among the group.
(TBH, I think what needs answering is less whether to cut than it is whether a mod should look at the editor(s) in question.)
Lost in Space
It obviously needs to be cut. The troper in question is edit warring, so that'll be handled as well. Umm... link to where this example was added, please?
Edited by Fighteer on Apr 30th 2019 at 11:12:41 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Here you go.
To be fair, the troper who added the original entry was iamnoone and the person who added it back was tdwally, so it may be they genuinely didn't realize it was removed for a reason, especially since it's phrased differently.
I shall remove the example regardless.
From YMMV.Sonic The Hedgehog 2019
- Narm:
- Ben Schwartz' very adult sounding voice doesn't quite mesh well with Sonic's child-like design.note
- The use of Coolio's "Gangsta's Paradise" in the trailer, a slow-paced, moody song about an inner-city gangster's regrets about his violent life of crime just does not fit with Sonic.
For the second example, I wonder if there's not an intentional use of Soundtrack Dissonance.
There is no Planet B
Both sound like misuse. (I'm not familiar with the work.)
Showtime!
I'm surprised the Sonic movie YMMV page hasn't been locked to prevent this kind of thing
Edited by Libraryseraph on May 3rd 2019 at 3:39:34 PM
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
I'm fairly certain we're not supposed to have {{Narm)) examples for works that haven't been released yet.
There is no Planet B
Aha, it's an unreleased work. I think these are not supposed to have any examples on YMMV tab. It's for audience reactions after all.
Should be locked, if it causes problems.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Thanks for the info.
Edited by XFllo on May 3rd 2019 at 7:52:06 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
and It was decided that unreleased works can have YMMV pages, and Narm is not on No Recent Examples, Please!, so having Narm for an unreleased work is not inherently forbidden. Sometimes, a trailer can try to present a certain scene seriously, but end up being unintentionally funny instead, which would be a valid case of Narm.
That said, neither of the Sonic examples seem to be correct, so I'd get rid of them.
Alright, that same entry for Avengers: Endgame is back, written differently again, presumably by another person who didn't see that it was intentionally removed. It's probably just going to keep getting added back at this rate. Thoughts?
There is no Planet B
Consensus here is to delete that entry, so feel free to remove it again — with edit reason and link to this discussion, so it's clear it's not you who is edit-warring.
The person who re-added the entry deserves a PM about the situation. I'd play nice and took the chance (though it's probably only a slim chance) that it's a new person adding the example who didn't check the page's history.
But mods should probably investigate. It's likely it's somebody's sock poppet.
Found these on One Day:
- Narm:
- One of the movie's biggest criticisms was Anne Hathaway's terrible attempt at a Yorkshire accent. Ironic because she had pulled off the stage school RP quite decently in Alice in Wonderland (2010) and Les Misérables (2012).
- Although Jim Sturgess is English as well, he got some criticisms for his I Am Very British tones.
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
That's certainly misuse, it doesn't try to explain how the example was meant to be dramatic or serious, nor how it ends up being funny instead.
There is no Planet B
Narm.Game Of Thrones, once again. Spoilers for the series finale.
- The Great Council to determine the new executive of Westeros near the end of the finale beggars belief. Tyrion, who has been in a dungeon awaiting execution, is alternately berated over his treasonous acts while also being given the time to unilaterally convince all the lords present that Bran should be king. There is zero squabbling over this choice, other than Sansa abstaining from the vote and seceding on the North's behalf with one sentence...once again, with zero squabbling; one wonders why the other kingdoms, especially the equally culturally unique Iron Islands and Dorne, don't take this opportunity to do the same. Jon's fate is treated as a potential war-starter, so he ends up being sent to the Wall. If you're paying close enough attention, you'll notice that the Starks now basically rule the whole continent between their nominal sovereignty over the now-Six Kingdoms and the North and Jon's significant soft power among the Night's Watch and wildlings beyond the Wall. None of the other lords have a problem with that? While it's reasonable to assume significant upheavals following Daenerys's failed campaign, these changes to the status quo happen in one sitting without any of these lords arguing their own interests. The scene presents a bizarre, sterile harmony so uncharacteristic of the country's political culture and the show's established tone that the scene is unintentionally hilarious.
- Personally, I don't see it as something that was supposed to be dramatic with pathos but failed and ended up hilarious instead.
- I follow the fandom and memes from this show quite a lot, and this hasn't come up as laughable anywhere else as far as I can tell.
- It's Wall of Text, but admittedly after I deleted a previous entry from the same editor that was on the other hand almost without context.
- It reads to me as complaining from someone who is not satisfied with the ending in general.
- Also, it's inaccurate because there was some squabbling.
Thanks for your input.
See ya later.
I don't think that really sounds like an unintentionally funny moment. It reads more like the editor wanted to complain about a plot development they didn't like and capped it off with saying it's hilarious in order to try and justify the entry.
I agree. It just reads as complaining with the phrase "unintentionally hilarious" shoehorned in. I don't get the impression from reading it what's supposed to be funny.
Bringing up these examples from the Other folder on Narm.Sonic The Hedgehog:
- Rouge the Bat in every appearance, especially for her... bouncing... In her first appearance, half of us were busy laughing at how unrealistically she moved; the other half found it... interesting.
- It gets better: in one of the special missions in Sonic Generations, Rouge accompanies you as a support character against Eggman's robots that would normally smack you down if you approached. How does she help? By firing projectiles of her sex appeal as hearts at the enemies to leave them vulnerable. Better yet, this works, meaning Eggman either programmed his robots to have libidos or the animals trapped inside very much have cognizance in this regard.
- The 3DS version of Sonic Generations attempts to convey the plot of the console versions to the best of its ability. Emphasis on "attempts." There had to be a better way to convey destroying Eggman's robots or making a Heroic Sacrifice than having 3D models slide past what appear to be trading cards.
- The face Classic Sonic makes when he's surprised. He just stands there with a gaping mouth, wide-eyed (keep in mind Sonic's two pupil, one eyeball design) stare.
- The battle the two Sonics are supposed to have with Eggman before the final boss is butchered in this version. The game portrays the battle with still images, cheap visual effects, and text boxes. It gets especially confusing when Tails enters the fight.
- Sonic and the Secret Rings gives us Erazor Djinn's final form: Alf Layla Wa Layla, mainly its voice. It's meant to sound echoey and distorted to show how powerful he's become, but the effect used for it is just awful. He ends up sounding like a demonic chipmunk as opposed to a monstrous abomination.
- In Sonic Shuffle, Lumina and Void's constant angsting.
- This gem near the end of the game.
Void: You don't need me? Then... Why was I... BOOOAAARRRUUUGGGHHHNNURRRRRRRRRGH?- The above is made even better when you see that the weird black light he emanates as he begins to go One-Winged Angel is shown coming out of his crotch.
- This gem
- The memetically dark line from Zor, "I long for Death's cold embrace."
- Also from Lost World, there's Zazz's line "I DREAM ABOUT POUNDING HIS SORRY BLUE BUTT!", which many fans found, uh, distracting, to say the least.
- Emerl's death in Sonic X is an very emotional scene except for the fact in the Japanese version, at one point Cheese's crying sounds like a squeaky toy.
- Seeing Big the Cat show up in anything past his missions in Sonic Adventure. Those who've grown accustomed to his Simpleton Voice and irritatingly slow movement won't help but involuntarily chuckle whenever he shows up even in dramatic moments.
- Sonic and the Black Knight has some spectacular moments of this too. In that game, when the characters die by a bottomless pit/lava, most of them simply yell or grunt. Most of them are not Lancelot/Shadow, who screams this with the most hilarious delivery:
Lancelot/Shadow: I HAVE FAILED!!
- The Sonic 25th Anniversary Party. Those who had to watch the event on stream had to deal with audio issues through out the most part of it (one segment where the host began to talk about the future plans for Sonic was left entirely mute because of the audio issues) and video quality problems. Apart from that, the event was filled with awkward and cringeworthy moments. The event will probably go down in history as one of the most unintentionally hilarious gaming events ever.
- In a refreshing change of pace, Sonic Mania has almost no Narm. One notable exception, however, is Super Sonic's idle pose, which has him tensing his muscles and vibrating intensely.
- Most of the official western art from the Genesis era, as its off-model-ness makes it So Bad, It's Good. But the worst/best example is probably this...◊ thing that passes off for Knuckles.
- Similarly, many stories from Archie Comics' Sonic the Hedgehog are this as a result of the comic's infamous perchance for hilariously bad art and bizarre dialogue. Case in point... There are even blogs dedicated to documenting So Bad, It's Good panels from the comic.
A trope for things that fall flat sounds like a great idea; there's plenty of songs that suffer from that problem. I don't really know about how bad the complaining problem is on this site, though