I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post
, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."
I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:
Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.
Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.
I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:
- The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
- The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
- What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
- The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
- Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
- Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
- How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
- The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
- Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
- The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
- Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
- The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
- The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
- Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
- The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
- After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
- "My leg!" Seems fine to me.
- "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
- Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
- Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
- Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
- The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
- Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
- Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
- Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
- Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
- Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.
Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM
The second example ends with "well, its probably Narm." But it doesnt explain why, so i would cut it on those grounds too.
Removed already.
She/Her | Currently cleaning N/A
- Narm:
- The government leader and blatant Hitler expy is named Adam Susan. Heil Susan! Changing it to "Sutler" in the film seems overwrought, as now the reference is way too obvious, but at least it actually sounds menacing. Likely intentional, as Susan himself is not a very impressive person.note
Yeah, the name being unimpressive seems like the point, Repair, Don't Respond.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
uhh yeah that should be removed right now honestly. Not sure what it was going for me in my eyes but that is all I am going to say
These were recently added to Ōkami:
- Narm:
- The "out of ink" sound is a very out-of-place cartoony boing.
- Many of the dramatic scenes fall flat for some viewers because whenever the characters speak, their heads are bouncing like squishy balls and they speak in gibberish backed by subtitles.
- The game's reliance on boob jokes, culminating in an evil kitsune overlord disguising herself as a Shinto priestess with huge, bouncing breasts.
The second one is a general example and the last one is straight up misuse since it's an intentional Boob-Based Gag, but I'm unsure about the first one. The sound effect indicates that you overused your magic powers and can't use them again for a while, but the dissonance may be there to intentionally mock poor ink management. Thoughts?
....Phenomenal
The first one is also a general example since running out of ink is just something that happens at the player's discretion (or maybe lack of discretion?) during normal gameplay, and not a moment in the plot. Cut all three.
There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.
My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic:
- Hasbro has taken to using Wilhelm Screams in pretty much every single episode of Season 4. However, there are a few occasions wherein it reaches Narm Charm levels. Most notably in Season 4, episode 6, wherein the characters are inside an homage to Superhero comics. As well as Season 4, episode 4, which was a homage to Indiana Jones. Argues with itself and fails to mention if the inclusion wasn't meant to be funny.
- One of the major complaints of the show's The Worf Effect usage over time. It was dramatic and legitimately hopeless at the first or second time, then it becomes downright ridiculous and a Running Gag by around the seventh or eighth, resulting in the characters who had to go through this look like Memetic Losers. Mockable complaint, but not in a way that's seen as funny in context. ML is also misused because fans dislike for clashing with their perception as opposed to accept/exaggerate it.
- From Season 8 on with the School of Friendship and members of the other races becoming more recurring characters, the cast starts to correct their usage of "everypony" to "everycreature", to try and be more inclusive of non-ponies. While fans had seven seasons to get used to the show's endless parade of horse puns, "everycreature" didn't settle as well as "everypony" and just sounds awkward to say. This is heightened by the fact that referring to other races as creatures sounds a little mean, and terms like "everybody" and "everyone" have been used off-and-on in normal speech since the show began. Complaining about being awkward/unfortunate implications, but not offensive in a way that seen as funny.
Lots of coffee
Agree. The first one is usually comedic in context, and the latter two aren't really "moments."
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Yeah I wouldn't really call the first one good since as said it did not mention if the entry was unintentionally funny or not. For the other two all I can say is that yeah this doesn't give me moment vibes from the entry I have read but rather what was going on in the context.
Found this on YMMV.Delicious In Dungeon
- Narm: While the manga and anime are agreed to be very good, a lot of fans find the English title to be a bit awkward sounding, instead preferring to call it by its Japanese name, Dungeon Meshi ("Dungeon Meals").
This entry is just complaining about the English title and doesn't describe anything unintentionally funny. Remove?
She/Her | Currently cleaning N/A
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
That is 100% misuse, it has nothing to do with the definition of Narm.
Lots of coffee
Fanon Discontinuity might better fit there.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
susie.
This entry from Moulin Rouge!'s (lengthy) Narm section jumps out at me:
- Satine saying how she wants to be "a real actress" when she is already singing, dancing, and performing for hundreds of adoring people.
First, this is clearly lifted from Nostalgia Critic's review—obviously it's fine if people agree with his opinion, but this strikes me as something that no one really thought about until the NC review.
Second, even when I watched NC, this particular gripe really rubbed me the wrong way. Satine does perform for a living, but she also has to do sex work to make ends meet, and clearly does not enjoy it or want to do it. It's true that a lot of actresses and singers in the movie's time period did do sex work on the side out of necessity, but Satine's entire goal is very clearly to "graduate" to being The Mistress to a single rich man so she doesn't have to sleep with multiple paying customers anymore, and have a benefactor who can fund the kind of theater she wants to do. (Still a kind of sex work, but you can see why Satine would consider it a step up, at least before she realizes her would-be benefactor is a Crazy Jealous Guy.) Acting like Satine's current job is in any way the same thing as what she's after feels... disingenuous.
Whew, I've held in that rant for years.
Edited by AdelePotter on May 9th 2024 at 1:35:36 PM
I've been here too long. Regretting choosing this screenname ten years ago.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
It's also just not really narm. There's nothing inherently silly about it without overthinking it.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
It's Fridge Logic misuse, and can be cut for that reason.
I congratulate you! Great take and I agree.
Remember the Name entry on YMMV.Delicious In Dungeon? Well it's back albeit rewritten:
- Narm: Not a lot of fans in the West like the English title, due to it sounding like a really awkward Dungeons & Dragons Shout-Out , resulting in many fans calling it by its Japanese title. It also doesn't help that many other languages also opt for a dnd homage title with much better results, like Spanish (Tragones y Mazmorras, which is one letter away from Dragones y Mazmorras, the Spanish name for dnd).
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
It's an easy cut since it so blatantly doesn't fit the definition.
This example from Narm.Game Of Thrones seems too general, and the second half seems more like falls flat rather than funny.
- Daario Naharis looks like he fell through a time portal from the set of Xena: Warrior Princess, and his lines sound like something out of bad fanfiction, which is as good an explanation as any for why he was recast after this season. Also, while Michiel Huisman's portrayal is a good deal less silly, there's still the number of times Daario's name is said in the Season 4 premiere to make sure we know it's the same guy.
Edited by randomtroper89 on May 10th 2024 at 2:06:07 PM
Agreed. That entry can be cut.
The top 2 entries seems to be bland and not fit in the category so agreeing to cut them.
From Tom and Jerry Tales
- Narm: One episode is called "I Dream of Meanie".
1. Its a ZCE, 2. given T&J's comedic nature, any silliness is usually intentional.
Feel free to cut it.
I'm leaning towards cutting the second bullet, since a title is more of a meta thing that's not part of the work's presentation.